Discussion #1789

Ken Endelman

1 hr 30 min - Discussion
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In this discussion, Kristi talks to Founder and CEO of Balanced Body (formerly Current Concepts) Ken Endelman, about his integral involvement with the Pilates community since he made his first Reformer in 1976. Learn more about important Pilates history as Ken explains the basics of the infamous Pilates Trademark Dispute and how it came to be that he took the lead as defendant in this 5 year battle, which involved just about every major player in the Pilates community and culminated in an 11 day trial. Ken also shares how he felt when he heard the verdict and the implications winning the lawsuit has on Pilates today.
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Jul 21, 2014
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Chapter 1

Making My First Reformer

Hi everyone. It's Christy Cooper. Here I am in Sacramento at balanced body with founder and CEO, an all around. Good Guy, Ken Endelman, welcome and thank you so much for letting me ask you all sorts of questions today. Thanks, Christie. If my facts are correct, I believe that you made your first reformer in 1976 which puts it as almost 40 years of making Pele's equipment. And to some people watching, they may not even realize the [inaudible] has been around that long. So that's just to give you an idea of how much we can learn from this man. First of all, thank you and thanks for letting me be in your huge space. It's really good to have you here. Really good. Thank you. Yeah, yeah.

Take us back if you would, to the beginning when it was that right that you made the first reform your first reformer, 1976 you said your facts were like 76 your facts are like my facts and it's like 75 or 76 I don't really remember whether it was 75 or 76 but it's really close. Tell me, what were you doing at the time? What was your profession at the time and how did it come about that you actually made this reformer? So what I did is I started out by having a, I had at that time in 1975 I was in school, see, I was going to UCLA, I had a waterbed store on Melrose Avenue in West Los Angeles, actually is West Hollywood. And, and, uh, um, and we made waterbeds and in order to stay in business, we had to, um, we had to make custom water beds. And by making custom water beds, we went into making other custom furniture like custom futons, um, dressers and tables and, um, and, and, and, and then it got into stuff like Ergonomic workstations because it was, computers were just starting to come out and, and monitors were like massive things and keyboards are massive things. And, and the only combination people had was a chair that went up and down. On one hand, I had this showroom on Melrose Avenue, which was not quite as short, but it was nice.

It had air conditioning and had clean air. And it was on the street and there was parking and stuff. And then on the other hand, we needed a place where we could actually make some of this, these water boots we were selling. So we had a little space at 10 by 20 spot, which is half the size of a garage in a public storage place in Chatsworth. And so that's, that was the first place where I named my first bee farmer. Was that, that was, that was, yeah, that was lik, so the name of the company that water bistro was liquid sleep interiors. LSI.

Yes. And because it was LSI, we got this cease and desist letter from their Sigler corporation that we were infringing on their trademark. But we just agreed we didn't find that one at all because there was nothing new in there. Could have been good preparations. That's foreshadowing for the rest of you. But, um, uh, so we, so I, so we have to, we did that and when, what happened really was, is that, um, I, we had this waterbed store, we had it for two years and, you know, we were struggling. We don't even, we can stay alive is by making custom stuff. And it was a partnership and that partnership kind of fell apart.

And I went towards the manufacturing end and then my partner stayed with the store and the store actually stayed in business for another five or six years after that. What about what age were you then? Was 25 25 25 I just, so when I was at liquid sleep, I started that business as a junior and then it got so busy, I actually had to take a year off. And then I went back in my second year at liquid sleep and finished up my senior year. And then I graduated. Yeah, it was busy those days. So one day this lady came in and she wanted me to make a, uh, and we actually had already made a table for, uh, a cool Parsons table and, and she'd come back after that and she wanted us to make a [inaudible] table and she just called it an apparatus and then she told me about it and stuff. And I'm Kinda listening cause you know, I wanna work, I wanna make stuff.

That's what I did. But you know, I kinda thought about this and I thought, you know, this is another wacky person with another harebrained idea and it's not going to really lead anything. So I kept on putting it off and putting it off and so, and she kept on bugging me and bugging me. I put it off and she bugged me, I put it off and she bugged me, went back and forth for a long time. Finally she said, well, when can you deal it? And they said, well, maybe next month. And she said, well, when next month, and I'm thinking, okay, well I'll add like 30 days to today and I'll get my, you know, and I'll send a date. So I set a date and then the day before she calls me, she says, can we have an appointment? You know, see you tomorrow. So I had to go out there and look at this and that's how it got started. So I looked at this machine, what does this person or teacher or are they trying to make up a studio? She was, she was a teacher. She worked at a studio. She worked at, worked at first for a man named Kim Lee, who's no longer with us. And um, so she came to me and said, can you make it? And then they went out, looked at it.

And the thing that was invasive about this was that I look at this machine and it was really crude. And at that time there was only one of the manufacturers guy making them in Los Angeles. And there was one guy that had just started making equipment in New York. His name is Donald Grads. And, and uh, so that's, that's the only choices. And the guy that was making in Los Angeles also did a props for, for, uh, for movies and things. So I look at this machine and it's really, really crude.

And, and it, and it, there's lots of opportunities to make it into a crucial piece of furniture, a lot of opportunities just to make it work a lot better. I think that was amazing about it was, is that these guys were charging over $3,000 for a reformer back in the days when you could buy a brand new Volkswagen for 1995 so you can see how expensive it was. And I brought it in, you know, my first few farmers were actually, my first one was like $850, which was like less than even what the materials cost me, but I was just too stupid to know how much to charge. But even after I adjusted my prices, I was still way, way, way cheaper and a lot better than what was out there. And that's kind of how it started. What were you modeling after? I mean, it was a crude performer, but where did, where did it come from? So the, so the machine I had worked for was basic. It was based after, um, plans that had been given to Ron Fletcher and, and he brought that out. So I, I was looking at that, that model and that machine was actually built on these plans and that's Kinda what I started out. Yeah.

At that time you was probably like maybe six studios in the country. Okay. That was what I wondered is, is your now, I believe that largest manufacturer and how did, at what point did you, 1976, I mean, in 1990s, people still didn't know about plots. When did you make the transition to making Palladian equipment full time? You know, it was right, right around 1990. There was, there was a couple of things that happened around 1990. Um, uh, number one is, uh, it was the first year that I started paying myself a regular paycheck. So I, up until that point, I never did. I was getting, I made $1,000 a month.

I thought I was going to break the business, but I was really going to break the business. And the second thing that happened was, is, um, I had slowly, slowly been phasing that water basement had become almost a, my new part of my business. And by 1998, I think it was 91, 92, we decided, you know, it, we're done. We're done with water beds. What was your clients reaction to your first reformer? I delivered the first beef farmer and end, it wasn't perfect. I mean it was a lot better than what they had.

But then I started working with the, the studio owners and trying to get it exactly the way that they wanted. What happened to the reason why they were talking to me in the beginning is that they needed new equipment. Their equipment was falling apart. Yeah. So, so almost right away I got orders for two and three pieces of equipment at a time and the customers wanted to buy equipment and then, and then what happened was, is that there was, there was three studios and in Los Angeles at the time there was around fetches studio. There was Kim Lee and then there were Stephanie freeze. Um, and the interesting thing about all of these guys is they are kind of came out of Ron Studio. [inaudible] and Ron kind of just exuded this like showmanship. And he really knew how to take care of celebs and he knew how to get publicity. And somehow he instilled that into Kim and stuff. And then they knew how to get the publicity and they knew how to get people excited about Flonase and, and, and get all this PR and, and then dad, so this, you guys are really growing fast because they had so many like celebs that were just coming into the studios and then, and then people started leaving their studios. I started buying more equipment.

So just started multiplying and multiplying and you can kind of see, even if you get the history of [inaudible] and Howard grill, it kind of goes from, starts to New York, goes to Los Angeles with Ron and then from Los Angeles who started scoring in the Colorado and it starts going. Um, so, so there were rung fetcher studios in Colorado and you see on her mid ticket to Texas, which kind of goes to New York, London, back to Texas. You know, you see Ron Fletcher go up into San Francisco, um, you know, at St Francis Hospital and then you see [inaudible] he went there too. Yeah, yeah. He, he, he was, he was the first person that gave official training to St Francis Hospital. It was actually Michael and Diane and Ron came up later. Okay. And then Elizabeth and every, Yep, exactly. The all the all kind of did is it kind of a connection to, to run their, um, yeah, it's kind of amazing to see you see, you see that, that people that Kinda came either from Ron Studio or it came from somebody that came from Ron's studio. Yeah, yeah. From, from the west coast or anywhere from, from the west coast. The east coast really didn't start growing at all until really it was around the mid nineties, you know, there was so few studios out there, so a few.

So, um, it's just fun. Several more questions. First of all, what was your reaction to working? What did you know about [inaudible]? What did you think of polarities or was it all mechanics and mechanisms for you? To be honest. All right. At the beginning, I thought it was kind of ridiculous, you know? Um, it must be fun. And, and, and the reason for that is, is, you know, this is exercise and I don't actually come from a movement background, like my, my background is in, you know, my degree is in political science. I, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm at, I'm going to kind of want to be engineer. I'm, I'm kind of a geek type person and, and, and it wasn't, you know, I started going to the studios and, and it wasn't, you know, I just kinda thought this is just another fad. Yeah. I mean, I'm sorry, there's machines at that point, I was selling these machines for $2,200 each. And about what year are you? So at this point, we're talking probably around 1980. Okay. 2020 $2 each. A lot of money, you know, even for them. Yeah. And, and I'm thinking, how many of these can I sell? How many who are gonna buy these, these machines? Right.

And my relatives and my friends and even the people that I work with were like scratching their head stick. And how many of these can you sell? I mean, you're going to saturate the market. What are you gonna do when you saturate the market? You know, I've been thinking I'm going to saturate the market for a thousand years now. Every time I think I must saturate the market. It keeps on growing and growing. Right? I'm done thinking about that. I'm done thinking I'm going to saturate the market. So I stopped that.

Was all the equipment equally popular when you started? No, no, no, no. The, the, I started making a farmers. That was the first piece I made. Um, and then I started making the step in halls [inaudible] and then I started making, uh, Cadillacs or chop tables and the gap between the first few farmer and the first production chapter. It was almost 10 years. That's how long it took. I mean, if you went into a studio in between ninth, yeah, yeah. Between 75 and 85. You just saw a reformer. I was just going to say and where I started, there was only one [inaudible].

Yeah. And, and then, and then it was friends around federal, state, UFC, pet Apollo's. You'd see ladder barrels, you'd see, you'd see Cadillacs and stuff. But, but that was the exception, you know? Yeah. There's only a few studios, um, where, where those pieces existed. So we had had current concepts where, and now we're in Northridge, California. Okay. We've got, now we've got 1200 square feet, so basically two garages now. Yeah. It's quite, really, really good jump. I'm not going to. Yeah. Um, and my, and my wife now had just finished getting her master's degree in library science at NSC. Okay. And so now she was looking for a job as her, as that full librarian. Okay. And so she started applying for jobs and she was actually, um, offered jobs in two cities. One was San Diego and didn't want to Sacramento.

And so, so we're San Diego, Sacramento and a lot of people that would be like an easy decision. Right. Um, it wasn't that difficult for us cause we both like northern California and the cost of living in northern California was a lot cheaper. There's only California and, and uh, and, and also it was close to much better skiing. Not to offend. I know you're from southern California, but, but you know, mammothly Tahoe, Tahoe, I'll take it. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm up here actually looking for a job the harder I look for a job and then I started telling people, okay, well, you know, people would call me up and see what we're ready to get my equipment, get my equipment. And I said, well, you know, w I never really make it much equipment. It doesn't really support the business. And it's Kinda like I, I, you know, I, I, I don't think I really want to build any more equipment. And he said, well, Bill One more for me. Build two more for me.

I'll order three if you bought them. Right. And it was like the harder I tried not to build the equipment, the harder I tried to get a real job, the more people started wanting to buy, buy in. Having make equipment. So I thought, okay, I'll actually turn the storage place into a real shop and I'll start making stuff. And so I started making reformers again. This all happened within like the first four months. I was in Sacramento since 1988, 1980 and, and so it kinda slowly, I just got kept on getting more orders cause Claudia who's growing and, and, and it got to be, I was in this cycle where I could make, I, if I had everything staged, I could complete one for maybe two days. Yeah. Because I had everything ready to go. Just assembly. Yeah. Let me just figure, all the characters are made, all the postings made, just putting them together.

So if everything in the stage and ready to go, this is kind of a complicated formula, but I could, I could actually actually every three weeks I could drive down to la. They could delivery. That's what I did. So my wife and I would drive down half the time she was pregnant. It seemed like, you know, drive down there like deliver the stuff and, and uh, and it was around that time that became really clear cause to me that there was something in this plot is well, because we would go to these studios and then we would deliver stuff and then we'd come back. Sometimes three weeks later we find the same people in there. And every time they'd see me they, they say this is really cool stuff. This is, you know, you know, they would like, like they, it sounds like they want to grab me and shake me and say you more, I'm doing, you know what you're doing.

This is a really cool stuff that you're making and you know, home, it's benefit I'm getting from it. And do you know how it's changing my life and I'm a little thick, but I kinda got it. I started to get it and, and I started realizing that, you know, this isn't a stupid fat. And then I got kinda more committed to making, making the equipment. And I started creating now a new supply chain of suppliers for, for, for at that time it was, it was still current concepts and it just started growing. So he went there as the 1600 square foot. Then we grew, we doubled that one to, we've got an, we rented another unit across in that one and that went until 1990 then we moved to 3,400 square feet on free ridge.

Yeah. And then we started moving into more units there. Okay. And then we had, I think, I think by the time we left Fruit Ridge, we had 35,000 oh my goodness. How many years did that take? That was between 1980 and 1990 and, and I, and at that point I was getting to a point where, you know, we were, we had like special giant ponchos where you would grab a reformer sideways, you know, this Poncho, which just your head stuck under secondary and it would cover the whole reformer. And to get from one building to the next building in Lorraine, you had to put this special raincoat, reformer raincoat on. So, but that's how we had to function. And then in every, by the time we left 14th Avenue, um, every, every day we would move stuff out. So we'd have room to work and then every night we will put back into the buildings, very similar plants. Well, it's how these things work. You know, you do this, you do this. And two, you can't stand it, then you get more space.

And that's, that's when we got to a point to where, you know, we came to this location here. It's not 35,000 square feet. No, no. So this is 77,000 square feet. Yeah.

Chapter 2

How the Lawsuit Started

So I'm thinking of the timeline. Um, it's now around 1990 you're in this facility, um, you've just moved up or you've been here a little while, but you moved into this big, big space and not long after that is the trademark, the infamous trademark lawsuit begins. And, um, what I'm wanting to do is, because I recently heard friends of mine who've been teaching for over 10 years that don't know about the lawsuit or don't know much, they don't know the significance. So can you give us some of the basics of what the s, the philosophy's trademark lawsuit is and the beginnings of how you were involved? I told you earlier that we fish, I make an equipment, they were like six studios in the world, right?

We went out in 1990 we tried to create the master list of our applies instructors in the universe and there was like 126 so had grown a lot, but it was still really tiny. Okay. And [inaudible] night in and people were out there talking about potties. They sold plot as equipment, they replay studios. They were, applaud his teachers. Um, what they did was plots. And then kind of what happened was, is around 1992 or so, the trademark was sold. Um, and the person that bought it decided to enforce the trademark as a trademark. There was a trademark and yes, and, and the one thing that it's important to say is that there was a trademark but it, but it wasn't a valid trademark, but it was legally on the books.

And once it's legal on the books, then it gives the people that own the trademark, the right to sue or to threaten to sue other people. You know, you can make, you can have a trademark and the trademark can be, it can get trademark status. Okay. Okay. But, but it may not meet all the legal thresholds for being a trademark, but because it's a, because it's a recognized trademark, it gives you the ability to sue people. I see. Can I just clarify for myself, because I've never understood this point that it in my mind, it's almost like you apply for a trademark. You say you have the trademark, you use the trademark symbol even. And so it's on, on record. Yeah. But in fact, nobody's challenged it to see if it met. It's illegal. Yeah. Okay. I never knew, I didn't, another way to put it this way is that, um, if you decide you want to create the, you know, the, the, uh, the Schlocky is my method of exercise. Okay. Yes. Um, and you tell the trademark office, you want to trademark schlocky smo. Right. And, and, but you, but you, you, but you don't tell them that it's a surname and you don't tell them that it's the method of exercise. Okay. Um, then they say, oh, okay, cause we don't know that.

We'll go ahead and get you trademark status under these classifications. Okay. I see. All right. If you had told them that it was a method of exercise or if you told them it was last name, they just won't give it to you but they don't know anything. Right. So they got to trademark the term and so, and it stays a trademark until I tell somebody challenges that I think is challenges one of two ways. One is, is the person that owns the trademark enforces their trademark and the person defends themselves by challenging the trademark, which is one way to do it. Um, or where the other way is the renewal process or, or, or, or somebody decides to actually challenge the chamber. I can Suze the trademark holder, but then it's more complicated that way.

So nothing happens until really the trademark holder does something because nobody really even cares at that point. Okay. I see. Okay. Alright. So the plot is trademark was, um, was a surname and it was, it was a method of exercise and it was, um, and it was actually fraud gently obtained, but until somebody says no, those things, nothing happens. Right. It takes a court overturn these. Okay. Okay. So I don't know if it's worth mentioning the players. I think it probably is. Um, so you said one person owned it or a group of people owned it and then it was sold to [inaudible] the [inaudible] studio, not the Chamber of the Potty Studio was first known by Joan Clara, then it was taken over by nine 39 corporation. And then that was then taken over by isotone. Owner of isotonic gloves. Yeah.

They actually a physical studio. Yes. The physical studio. And then the physical studio was then sold to a guy named, we tie home. Okay. And then we tie home then. So let's say a guy named Shawn Gallagher. Okay. Okay. We tie home, trademarked it, and then Shawn Gallagher, we registered it. Okay. Um, and, and, and after he registered it, then he began to enforce it. Sean Gallagher. Sean Gallagher. Okay. Okay.

So what then happened was, is that people that were using the word plots had to stop using the word Flonase. So if for instance, [inaudible] sort of give me an idea what that would be like if I sent to you, Christie. So what do you do for a living? You know, and then you would have to say to me, Oh, Ken, um, I work for a company called exercises based on historical principles of Joseph h Palazzos Yep. anytime.com that would be, okay. So kind of along you are, and uh, and, and, or, or you would have to say, um, I teach exercises based on the historical concepts and pistols and Joe's h Valadez. Yes. Um, that's what you would have to say. You could just say your plan is teacher. And if you were applying studio, you know, you would have to say, you teach exercises. Yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, it doesn't work. Right. And nobody's going to say that. So there's a bunch of schizophrenia in applies. Well because, and within the studio I'm taking applies class, but in the public, right. And there was no internet at that time, right in the public. You had to say, um, you had to call it something else basically, you know, and Oh, and by the way, you would have also had to say based on historical principles and Joe's h [inaudible] and then you would have to say plot is, is a registered trademark of [inaudible] Inc and then give the phone number. We never said that part. Yes. Yes. That was what you were supposed to do. Yeah.

Especially if you sign a settlement agreement. So yeah, so that was kind of the context. So you had this like world out there where people couldn't exactly say what they did publicly and then how do you, how do you grow your business because you can, you know, there was no internet at that time. So there's no searching for this stuff. You can do a yellow page ad, but there was no category for PyLadies. Right. You can advertise it. You did Palladia so what are you going to do? It all had to be word of mouth. And then, I mean, I was there, I taught holidays and then I didn't teach the lattes.

I taught the work inspired by Joseph h Valadez. I didn't give the phone number though, but you know, he's just getting to where someone else in my town taught it to. Um, we and, um, our friends or whoever would call on word of mouth. But you were so afraid of who is on the other line that you would say, well, no, I don't teach, but I teach and it would get so confusing. So that was my experience, which was a little bit later. But what was it like, you know, here in this facility in 1992, you've been here two years now, uh, you're selling PyLadies equipment. [inaudible] what was it like for you? So I'm, I'm kinda going along, I'm, I'm happy. You know, I'm running a business. It's, it's good. I, the community is growing.

We're doing a lot of good things for a lot of good people. Um, where we're now in hospitals. Um, so th and the physical therapy communities is recognized. [inaudible] um, there are, you know, athletic teams that are using flyers, equipment. It's, it's Kinda, it's growing. It's like an exciting, you know, it looks like there's a a future out there. Yeah. But the problem is now is all of a sudden now we're told that we can't use the word plot is anymore.

Th the problem becomes is you're just worried about using it and how that manifests itself is you're talking to people on the telephone that I get any facings is this letters and they can do, I'm not, I haven't gotten one yet, but my customers were getting them and, and they were calling me because at that point, this is before the Internet, beyond spotty was kind of the nexus of communication for the plot is what we had 800 potties. Never was, wasn't people paid for long distance phone calls and they appreciate it. You had a number. So they would call me and say what's going on? And I would give them my take or help, you know, tell them what I knew. Whatever I went over I could share. Yeah. And I would try and, and I would try and get these people in touch with whoever can help them at the time or whoever knew more because they could get the answers right. Can you, is there anyone we know that's still teaching that was getting cease and desist letters at that time that you can remember read to say blonde? Of course. Got One. Um, I'm sure Jabra Lessen. Got One.

I'm, I'm Mary Sue Corrado and, and, and, and see Alan got one. Um, I'm trying to think of who else got 'em and I know about, I know a lot of people had ignored them, you know, um, but a lot of people took them really seriously. No, there were like 200 of these too. I don't know how many hundreds and hundreds went out, but I know that they were at 200. She just letters that were actually signed and agreed to by the people that received them. I wonder if that, yeah, cause if you are a student, a studio and you got this letter, you're not going to fight some corporation in New York. You're just going to agree, you know, and, and go your own way and not use [inaudible] anymore. Okay.

So you're saying that they decided they capitulated, they had no choice. They had no choice. Yeah. I think there's a really interesting story in court during this whole thing because they were going to use these 200 seasons and desist letters as evidence that, that the pliers community acknowledged that, that that plot is incurred, a legal right to the trademark. And a, it's a really cool story because the judge had two piles of documents. There was a pile of documents that were, she was going to keep it as evidence and review them in a pile of, uh, documents that she was gonna not keep as evidence and not look at anymore. And, and, and Ken Dressler, who is the attorney for plotty zinc does this passionate plea about how everyone, everyone thinks that this is a registered train wreck of is they can acknowledge this and any presents as evidence. These 200 seasons is this letters hands him to the bail if the bail and has it, has it to the, to the judge.

The judge looks at them and she goes under the far pile and she says people do what they have to do. And that was like at that point I realized we're going in the right direction this time. Okay. I'm going to make you come back to that cause I need more context here, but that, that's great. That must've been a huge sigh of relief. Okay. When do you come up against, yeah, so, so now, so 1982 I'm making equipment now, making equipment for just about everybody at this point and um, and I'm actually making equipment for Sean Gallagher, plenty zinc. So, and he's one of my customers. Right. And, and he told me about the trademark and I'm taking the, so what, because you know, you know, I had a chance to buy the trademark and I thought it was what a stupid thing to do cause you can't enforce this thing. It's just not a valid trademark. You knew that going in just on print. I mean, oh yeah, no, I, I knew the guy that saw the trademark to him, called me about a year before I won it. So the trademark to me, and it was like, well, what, you know, I actually actually called my attorney to say, you know, what's the deal here? And he said, well, you know, there's nothing you can do with it. All you can do is buy it and sue people.

And if you, you know, and if you're not ready to do that, then why would you buy it? Because it's not a valid trademark and it's not going to get anywhere, anywhere. So I knew it wasn't a valid trademark from the beginning. And so Sean bought it and he thinks, oh, I've got this value chain mark. I'm gonna, I'm gonna protect bodies and I'm gonna go on and money.

See, so, sorry, I, that was an important point you just made. Yeah. You think the intent then was, I'm going to protect the lattes. Oh, or is this in retrospect? It was the stated intent. It was stated. That was the spiel that was this field. Okay. I believe, I believe I got it. I mean, from my perspective it was really simple.

There's lots of people out there teaching philosophies they're doing or most of them are doing a really good job and you know, and I know that they did a good job because I know I see applies is growing and people aren't going to come back if they're being hurt all the time. It just doesn't happen. And so why would you put people out of business? Because they're not doing it your way. Did you get a cease and desist? I didn't get one at the beginning because pies equals buying stuff from me. Um, and so, and I later found out because they actually said to me that they were gonna save the best for last.

So what they're trying to do is build their case by sending out these cease and desist letters to people and then, and then come to me and say, okay, Ken, take out a license, pay the royalty, or stop using that word. That was the deal. Now, how would it work with a manufacturer when you're not going to go through a training program to use? No, I would just pay a royalty on every machine that I sold them in order to call it plays. Okay. Yeah. And it would be built to their standards. But basically since everything I built, I would get a royalty. Anything was going to be to their standards. So, right. So, so there was, there was a discussion at the beginning because you guys, my attorney was saying avoid litigation, not cost. If I did all cost you, whatever, you can just, just don't, don't even go there. You know, no matter whether you win or you're gonna lose, you're gonna regret it.

So, sorry, let me back up. One step. You're, you're selling him equipment, you know, other people are getting cease and desist letters. Right. Do you think it's a matter of time for you or are you, I know in retrospect to you, I know that it's a matter of time for me because he's saying, you know, at some point, Ken, you're going to have to get a license. Okay. So you're having this conversation with this conversation and I say, no, I'm not going to get a license, not going to get licensed. Okay. So that's pretty good. But then it got to a point, so it was like in, this is in 1995 and he said, you know, you're going to, you're going to have to take a license. It's bad for me that you're doing this without a license, take a license or I'm gonna sell you. And so that was when my, my lawyers are okay, well, you know, maybe there's a happy ground with the whole place.

Community can survive and flourish and he'll still be happy and there wasn't, he just wasn't. Do you think he felt up against the wall because you said no and uh, cause I, if he had gone that far, he kind of had to follow through with you, didn't he? Well, actually, no, no he didn't because, cause if he would've said, he would've said, okay, can take out a license for a dollar a year and I'll give the other studios a license for a dollar a year, you know, then I think everybody would have done it because it would've been much cheaper than being sued. But it was all the other stuff that made it impossible to do business that made it impossible to do business with him. The problem. Okay. Yeah. So, so you get the call, I get the call, those kind of negotiation to try and find out if there's a way that would kind of work. Cause you know, now I'm, I'm, I'm looking at, I'm looking at these people that I've worked with for so long that had gotten these ceases, others had been tortured by, by, by him. And I'm thinking, you know, what's this guy going to do? And, and, and I, and I knew that he was kind of a ruthless guy and he just, he really, he didn't just send a letter c and say sign it. He would drag the process out. He would cost you lots of legal dollars.

He would keep asking for more and more stuff. Um, and make it, make it actually hard for you to, to take a license because he wanted to punish him. He examples out of people, anyone in it. And I knew that he wanted to make an example out of me cause he actually told me that. So if I lost the case I was really going to be in trouble. And that was probably the scariest thing if I lost the case, you know, because even though I thought I had a really good case, it's never done until it's over. You never done. So you get the call and you instantly know you're going to fight them even though you know in your mind he is ruthless. He's towards no, but I do, I mean, cause I, most people, most people are, or we'll find, most people are wanting to find something that works for everybody else. Mostly we want to find a compromise. Yes.

Most people are kind of happy and it's, you know, you're, you know, you kind of go through life, you know, I know what I want, I know what you want, but, but you know, if we can be just as happy with something in between, yeah, we're, we're good. Right, right. I tried to talk to this guy, but, but at the end of the day, it just wasn't going anywhere. Did you negotiate with him about, it was like about six months when we first, first he called me and I wasn't going to discuss it and then he went back and forth and then finally it was like, it was like, you know, it was kind of the second or third week in December and he said, you know, if, you know, I don't want this to drag out, you know, if, if we don't get an agreement by Christmas, I'm going to see you, you know? And he did. He did. So he's now said if, if not by Christmas,

Chapter 3

You Got Served

and I'm guessing Christmas came and went, it was like Christmas Eve. Um, Christmas Eve actually served me. It was the first business day on Christmas. Cause cause you know, you a theatrical guy, anyone who screw up my holiday of course. Right. So, yeah. Yeah. And he even had, you know, in, in, in lawyer world, you know, if you know someone's represented by a lawyer, when you serve them with a lawsuit, you ca serve their attorney. Right.

So, so, and then if you can't do that, you serve it at their business and then if you can't do that, you serve it to their house. Right. So with this guy, do, he has this thing delivered to my house, searched my wife, who had never been, you know, I mean this is like, you know, just a day in the life of, you know, rise and all of a sudden this guy knocks on the door and she knew it was going. She knew it was going to happen. Sure. Because I had talked to her like about four days before and I told her about the conversation that I told my lawyers to have with the attorney and, and, but before I did that, I, I wanted her to be sure. And because I just really joined her into this thing. Um, but it's your whole life. Yeah. And then she said to me, she said, well, can you know if we have to, we'll just live in what I make. And that was like the permission, like say, okay, make the car, tell them to go take a hike. And that's what we did. Oh yeah, yeah.

That's great. And I mean, so the door knocks, it's Christmas Eve. Okay. Okay. Suppose I got to actually check the date, but it was either the day after Christmas Eve or for Christmas where it was one of those days. Yeah. I'm at work. Door knocks, you know, the guy, they're the, the, the uh, um, uh, process servers. They are with the envelope, you know, sign here even sir. Yes, yes. Yeah. So that set up just like chain of events that happened. Cause now, now this whole thing was just going on in, in, in hours. Now my life did change because, because not only not only did did, was ibn sued, but Debra lessen had also been sued. So what happened was really kind of what was really nice is that Deborah lesson's attorneys started talking to my attorney. Did you know Deborah?

I didn't know Deborah. Yes sir. Yes. Okay. Yeah, I know Deborah for awhile and I had conversations with her and stuff. Okay. Just for the people who don't know, Deborah, she, you can see her here on PyLadies anytime, but she was in New York. You're in Sacramento. She had owned a studio from the early eighties or now I'm forgetting the year long time. Was she already deciding to fight? I guess? Well, she was doing everything that she could do, but it was like, you know, she was a one woman studio. Yeah. Fighting politely zinc and it was like, it was lots of resources, but she didn't have, but she has tremendous tenacity and willpower. Um, was she the first two first single instructor to stand up against?

Um, she wasn't actually a guy named Wellgreen who had gotten sued in Washington. D C was sued by, right by Sean and I, I'm trying to read exactly how many losses were actually followed. So there's that. The first process is a cease and desist letter. And then if you don't capitulate, then you get sued as well. Okay. I feel like Deborah might've even said she didn't even get a cease and desist or it's they, she was just instantly served, I thought, but maybe it, it, it could have been, I mean, he was sloppy. Sloppy. Okay. But, but she was the wrong person. And, and she had as like a client, an attorney named Lawrence Stanley, who was a bulldog real bull dog and, and a very scrappy guy.

And probably the most fortunate thing that happened, you know, for her in this lawsuit was that her relationship with Larry Stanley, you know, but like, Larry wasn't going to take this stuff. And so, so he starts pushing back and then your lawyers start talking and our lawyers started talking and then they decided to keep what's probably best because the case is the same case no matter what, um, over the same data if we combine lawsuits and, and, and, and so that's what we ended up doing. And so then, so then it was, it was, it was um, play zinc versus a balance. At that time current concepts was the case. And then, uh, and then Deborah's, Deborah's case was dependent on the outcome of our case. W shut. It wasn't direct named [inaudible]. She was not no longer named in the lawsuit, but she was totally a part of it. And it worked out really nice about this whole thing was is that I think at that time it was a huge number of people in the place where that so had their head in the sand and they probably thought it balanced body is getting sued. It's kind of their problem in our current customers get sued.

It's their problem. They really, we're going to do much about it. It didn't really even care. But by having Debra involved in this, that was a person that a studio owner can really relate to. You know, in those days there was a real sharp differentiation between, you know, who made equipment and who taught philosophies and the equipment people were just equipment people. Right. And, and really were like Kinda suppliers to the industry. But really weren't part of the industry. That is kind of a different, it's like a second class citizens does. At least that's how I felt. And so, um, but Deborah really helped put a face on this and then, and then having, uh, Larry Stanley Gordon Troy work together was just a phenomenal, phenomenal do duel, you know, you know, cause you got one guy that's, you know, here's the guy that you know, actually resurrected the jeep trademark. You know, cause I had gotten almost gotten generic and then he had brought it, brought it back as a trademark. He was on that team and, and he really, really understood trademarks and he was really passionate about, about what we were doing. I mean he was really a passionate guy. So Larry's are Gordon's, they're together. That worked out really good. And now also, well green's attorney was providing evidence as well cause he had, he had honked off wheel green and we'll, green was, you know, he's a bulldog.

He doesn't like to take, you know, he doesn't get pushed around by anybody. So we had, we had these guys kind of everything was lining up and then it really, it was kind of what we needed in order to, to, to fight him because cause it was going to cost a lot really a lot to do this. Okay. So it's time to start the trial judge jury. How, how, who's going to decide the outcome. So the way that this was set up and this was done by mutual consent from us and from plotty zinc, um, there was a lot of discussion about going to a judge, which is called a bench trial or going to a jury is a jury trial. And there was a lot of discussion about which is better and which one is worse, what both parties seem to agree on.

And what I was kind of taught to understand, cause I, I kind of wanted to go with the jury trial is that we should go for a bench trial. And the reason for the bench trial was because the nature of trademarks is so confusing to most people that that thought I'll never get it. They'll never understand it. It'll take forever to explain to them what they need to understand in order just to make the decision. And, and since we thought that we had a case that we were limited legal merits, then then a reasonable judge when it would come to our side. And they kind of thought the same thing for some reason.

And so we opted for the, the, the, uh, a bench trial and it also turns out to be faster and also turns out to be cheaper. The parties involved have a choice in it. Yeah. You have a choice in, in this kind of a trial, you have a choice. Um, and then, and, and so, and then it, what happens is the judge gets to make the decision. And so, so we just basically entrusted to her. You're all coming together. Is that called, is that a class action with just three people? The class action was two different parts. So there's, so we actually toured as a lawsuit and then on the other hand we had to, um, there's a lot of strategy that was involved. So like one strategic thing that plays into the US is that they also had a lawsuit that they filed against us in St Louis by stamina. So, um, because nominate was licensing the plies trademark from plays inc they sued us in St Louis to create an, they've timed it so that their law, their lawsuit would come to court exactly the same time that ours are is dead as, as an equipment manufacturer now that, that yes, that Stan, when it comes after you comes after your ass because they, they [inaudible] their vision was as we were using the plays mark on our equipment and so, so they decided to sue us and then they actually had people in the courtroom every single day jury during the court cause they wanted to see what happened because that was, they're making a lot of money off the sign there. Their home reformer. Okay. Wow. So, and that was, I believe, where the money was coming from to support Claudia Zinc. Oh yeah, yeah. Yes.

Okay. Yeah. So that was once, once very strategic thing. Yeah. But it worked out really good for us and I don't know why and I have theories and why it worked really good. But you know, we had this, this, this judge name is Miriam Cedar bomb and, and, and then there was, and there was, uh, another, another judge who also happened to be a woman in St Louis. And when the two things came together, these judges don't want to hear the same thing over again. And I think they just talked and they decided to make the outcome of the case in St Louis, depending on the case in New York. And so basically then the one in St Louis went away.

I'd see all while we fought the one in La, in New York, and if the one in New York, if we lost that unlimited, we lose, we will lose St Louis. It was all or nothing. Oh Wow. Okay. But at least it meant that we didn't have to fight two lawsuits at the same time. So that worked out really good. So that was our strategy. Um, meanwhile our strategy was, is that, um, and there was a couple of things that were happening, but when one of our strategies was this is how do we bring this lawsuit to a close quickly and, and, uh, and, and somebody thought of, you know, if we, if there's a class action lawsuit, then at least while these people are in this lawsuit, they can't be sued for infringement cause they're part of the class. So, so that would give them the freedom to breathe because you know, if you tell someone you can't do business with way for five years, it's like second life out of their business, you may not survive. Sure. So this gave him some, some fresh air. Yeah. So that's why there was a class action lawsuit as well. Sure. Factor there was cross section meant you could start saying glottis again.

You could, you could get away with it. Yes. Okay. Okay. You, you're running a risk of them having to re yeah, you can still be in trouble, but yeah. Yeah. Okay. But, but for that short window of time, while this thing is pending, you know, you could be sued for it. Whether it was right or wrong, hadn't been decided in court yet. No. Who's involved in the class action? Uh, just about everyone in applies community. So there's 10 people signed up for it. Ron was a witness there. Kathy was a witness at the case. Romana how is she involved in this? Or do we not need it? Well, I think it's, I think it's kind of really an interesting thing cause it's, in some ways it was, um, I had all these ambivalent feelings about Romana and, and what was, um, who is really tough about it was really interesting.

So Ramana was the star witness replacing because they were white because they were working together because she lent tremendous credibility to, to apply this things in their teacher training program and stuff because she's Romano. Right? Yeah. Um, what was really fascinating was, and, and I told the story a couple of people, but so they, they being reminded in this or lead witness Umana just comes up and just tell us the truth. She just, you know, she, she's, she supplies teacher. She talks about the prize method of exercises she use. She applies in conversation just the way that we are right now. And, and, and she might say, yeah, you know, the, um, plot, his method is, you know, is, is a real trademark. But when you say supplies, method of exercise, you can't be a trademark. So by virtue of how she spoke, not what she said, but how she spoke to me, how she used her words, she actually turned out to be our best witness. You know, just, just by, just by being communication, because, because, because she didn't, um, and while I'm assuming that she would be given a script, but she didn't follow the script if she'd been given it, but she just said what she normally says, which is how we all normally do it. But in that context, you can't have a real trademark. So it was really helpful. Yeah. So she became our, our witness. Yeah.

It was an amazing thing. I was actually proud of her. I don't know why, but I was like, I don't know. You know? Um, well I guess you would be expecting something else. And then she just comes in and says, I was expressing something totally different. Yeah. Yeah. I was expecting her to be paired in official line of flooded sink and, and, and she did. She did. We had phenomenal testimonials by people that were just would knock your socks off. I'm Kathy Grant, you know, you know, she's so direct. Yeah. I was so direct. Right? Yes. Um, you know, she was, she was scared to death to get on the stand.

We didn't even know if she was gonna get on the stand. So when did it go to trial? In 1995 I went to trial, I'm sorry. Sorry. Yeah, I was sued in 1995 they didn't go to trial until year 2000. Yeah. So five years of basically litigation. Yes. Evidence and strategizing and, and a lot of, a lot of really, I mean not only was I treating the lawsuit, but I was actually for the first time getting for two reasons, huge access to just stuff about Joseph holidays, you know, documents and in films and photos and you know, stuff that I like to research and people just kind of helping or do you see this, you see this, you know, and you're selling it to me, you know, people that will send stuff anonymously to us. Just an overview real quick.

Did your student 95 five years of litigation? Five years of, actually in my world it was like doing two jobs cause I was, you know, I had current concepts at the time and I was fighting this lawsuit so everybody else was kind of running the business. I was on the phone every day, hours, sometimes, sometimes eight hours a day. Sometimes I wouldn't even get off the phone, you know, and then, you know, and then, and that night I would like wake up in the middle of the night and start typing those, cause I would think of stuff that the lawyer should know this or did you know this? Did you remember that? So we talk about this, right. And I would, I would sometimes I would wake up at three o'clock in the morning and if I, and I knew if I didn't get down into my keyboard, I was gonna miss it. It just would have happened like in 1978 I probably want to carry, I would've just found something else to do. Cause I was like probably making, you know, three reformers a week or a month or something like that, or a year even. Um, but by that time it was a big deal. I kind of knew that when he sued me that it was, that it was gonna be, I was either gonna win or I was gonna lose. And if I lost, he was going to make an example of me and, and he would, he would make it as is hard for me to stay in business as he possibly could because that's the way we can say yes to that. And that's a huge, that's your whole family life. You're having kids here. It's kind of like it was when it was weighing the decision between what's right to do, cause I knew it was right to tell him to take a hike. The question is, is what did I want in a risk to do it? That's my question. And, and probably part of it is I didn't really know how much I was gonna put at risk and I did this. I didn't really know how much it would impact my family.

You know, I didn't really know how much it would impact my business. Um, I just, I just know that stuff. And had I known that, you know, I know I might have gone a different direction, I think. I think ignorance was really a blessing that you can't know if it's going to be five years. Yeah. I D I didn't know it was gonna be five years, like I'm such an optimist. So I really thought that it wasn't going to last that long. That would be really obvious to anybody looking at this is really a stupid lawsuit and it would just go away. What I did count on in what, um, in, what surprised me a little bit was that because I think the case was so weak on the merits, um, he relied on tactics and so the tactics were to draw out and to make it as painful and as expensive as you possibly could. So that, so that I would just get worn out, you know? Um, did you ever come close? No. I mean, I know you were tired, but, no, no, I actually, you know, that it kind of backfired for him because in, at five years in the lawsuit enabled me to stage the expenses over five years.

So if I had to pay for everything in one year, I would have been had, I would have been toast, you know, there's no way I could afford it, but because it was over five years and, and, and also because we had come out with the allegro at that one point and that was selling so well that that long ago. Yeah. That goes 98. Wow. The big that the additional sells at that brought on was, you know, kept us to kept us from dying basically. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I know there's more to that then the, the trial itself is 11 days, so I'm just wanting to give that overview too, cause then I want to go back and, yeah. And you know, I, I don't know if it matters who was deposed, but, um, I find it interesting when you talk about Kathy grant and Ron Fletcher up on the stage and you were starting to tell, uh, about Kathy being direct. Yes. Um, I don't think we finished that story. Okay. Okay. Alright. So what was really important for us is to establish that potties was a common name. She's commonly, and that was a method of exercise. And, and what we really wanted to do as you wanted to get, you know, from a diverse group of people, um, damn on the stage to say, okay, you know, I teach plots. Right. And, and, uh, and, and, and Kathy, because she'd been around for so long and I've been doing it for so long, list just a prime candidate. Ron was fantastic, you know, but so, so, but the problem was, is Kathy had a really bad court experience years before in the last thing and the one that she want to do is come into court and she was freaked out about coming to court. We didn't even know for sure if she was gonna come to court.

Um, but, but it was important to have her there, you know, either her or Lolita, because she was one of the only two people that actually had been ever certified by Joe to teach [inaudible]. So it made them authorities. So, so we get, so finally, we work really hard. And Debra was just instrumental in getting Kathy there because it was like, it was so touching those. So touching Gulf and we were like, I mean, things were so tight budget wise, we were like, I was flying people in on points. Some people will say, well, I'll show up at how much are you gonna pay me? And other people was like, oh, I'm there. You know? Yeah. So, yeah, never tell that story. But yeah, I won't tell you who said yeah, but actually, you know, the funny thing is, is that the people that said, I mean, how much would you pay me or the people that you don't see on the industry anytime. So it's kind of a cool thing. But, um, we finally get Cathy to come in and, and, and she, she, she walks in and it's like, and, and she had laryngitis and you know, she lost your wife and you know, I don't exactly know what was going on because I was busy doing other stuff. But what happened is Kathy gets, I'm on the, and she talks about, you know, um, you know, how you know, how she started doing plays and, and, and it's a couple of questions. She's basically answering yes or no. And then the question says, so what do you teach at your studio? And she just says, polities and in the next question was, is then do teach, um, and then you train other people how to do this.

And she says yes. And she said, what do they teach plots? And is there any other word that would describe what we do other than [inaudible]? And she says plots. And it was like, there was so on point with so much credibility. Um, and I can still remember her saying this, I can almost picture of it. I mean, I don't know her, I've met her a few times, just staring in the eyes. You know, it's like looking at these judges and another judge, but the attorneys, the attorneys, the intimidator, you know, she was, didn't like being in court, but she's going to tell you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So powerful. It was really powerful. Really powerful. And then, and then I was, the one thing that I missed was when Ron was here and you know, and I heard he did a really good job and he made the whole court room laugh and stuff. But, but you know, to have these guys there, it was amazing. And you have a judge there that really understood. Um, and not only did she really understand trademarks, but she also understood the art community and she understood the parts of town where the applies studio was. And she understood that. I mean like, like Ron wood, wood t talk about, you know, the, the danced teachers that he worked with and she knew him, you know, she was deep into the arts community. You know, we actually went and visited Dragos ply studio the first day in court just to put color around the whole thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With the judge. We all got on the subway, we all go down there and we all meet.

The judge was into it. There was, there's this one story where, um, I'm [inaudible], I mean, I'm understand, right? And here I am. You stand on. Here's the thing right here, there's a barrier here. The judge is right here, right. Okay. Miriam Cedarbaum, incredible lady. And, and uh, and, and they're, and they're trying to prove that I don't know anything, right? So they asked me what a posterior pelvic tilt is. And so I say, well, you know, I'm not applying instructor. I'm out a physical therapists. Um, I can tell you what I think a posterior pelvic tilt is, and you have a chill, um, and, and rotating your pelvis forwards or backwards, right? I, it's going, you know, there's posterior and anterior, right? So I looked down and I see the judge going like this, and she saw me do, and she was, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we had, you know, we had, um, Kathy was there, Ron was there.

Chapter 4

Worst Night of My Life

Um, we had, um, Lolita was here on standby in case Cathy could make it, you know, but she never had a test. She never had to testify, but she was, if for some reason, Kathy didn't make it and Lalita was the second person. But since Kathy had more local experience, she was the preferred per person for that. That particular thing. Um, we had, um, you know, we had lots of, you know, different experts and we had, we had a lot of people depose, so there was probably no one in the plots world that you could think of at that time that didn't actually get the pose into their testimonies became or their, their depositions became part of the part of the case. Wow. So Ari right down, Marie Jay did, she was, she deposed, she raised oppose rail rail was deposed, Brent was deposed [inaudible] Anderson, [inaudible], Amy and Rachel. And they were instrumental in the case too because they actually were using the plots name with a license supposedly with, with [inaudible]. Oh from the, that that's right. Prior to him selling it.

So they were already yeah, that's right. Yeah. They were already in Colorado till it center of Boulder teaching the actual same trainers. Yes. Ramani even went there to teach. Yup. But the license was, and they, and they, they had basically permission cause what they had, they were going to order equipment from, we tie and we tie, couldn't provide the equipment. So they negotiated a license and permission. It wasn't even a license. It was pretty cheap. It was, it was permission to use the word Palladia since they became the place city of boulder. And they never got sued because they were kind of like similar. Yeah. Where are they? Where are they? Would you call it grandfathered in because they were already doing it or [inaudible] I think that they would become, there were probably that, you know, if you look at people to sue and the people that you have the highest likelihood of success, they were the ones that you had had the least likelihood of success by seeing them cause they're in a really good situation. Yeah.

And they all started going studios. So you know, Sean typically picked people that were, um, easy to prey on. What was it like for you to testify? It was hard. It was really hard. I mean, you're just, you know, you're tired. So this is 11 days of testimony over six weeks, so, oh yeah. So I was in New York for six weeks. I'm living in a hotel room. Right. So I have is a two room hotel room.

My attorneys in one remind me the other room, there's a table in there, which is like the war table. It was with fax machines on it and stuff. And we would go to court after court, we would eat, then we would come back and we would start working on the next step for the next day. And that was, and then we'd go to sleep and the next morning we'd get up and we'd go into cart, you know, or, or you know, sometimes there were like, there were breaks. Cause if there's like capital offenses, they take the guys, the cheesy cheesy like, you know, intellectual property stuff that gets put on the back burner. And then the, the, the guy that's gonna go out for life, he gets to stay in court first priority. So you're sitting there and, and, and uh, and you know, for me it's like you don't want to screw this up. Right. Okay. By the time we got to court, we had, there was four attorneys that we had in case we had an evidence attorney.

We had a trial attorney way who's actually a criminal attorney who learned trademark law fast enough to, to be, uh, to be our, our, our witnesses. I mean to be already to be all right. Our trial attorney who is fantastic, um, his name is Robert Fogel Nest. Okay. And so there's Robert Phone. Yes. Gordon try, uh, t actually Larry was not there. Larry was, Larry was at that point, I'm out of the country and, and then there was uh, Tamma Codman who is like in charge of evidence and there was me and so we were all like putting together these, these, these files so that we keep prepared. Um, Bob for the next days, witnesses and stuff.

It was Kinda Kinda cool actually I have in this deal, I ended up with more time in federal court than most attorneys ever get. Just me by myself cause they never get time to really go to trial. When you think about all the litigation and how rarely it ever gets to court. Yeah, it's, it's, you know, my 11 days of actual trial time was amazing. To get back to one thing that you asked me.

It's like they ever had any days where I thought I was gonna lose it. And so it's this one trial and, and I was understand and they, and they started asking me some questions about I, so we had started the Joseph h potties foundation and the reason why we started that is in the case that we did lose the lawsuit, if we can say that were associated with the Joseph h players foundation, we can at least use what we call it the p word. Okay. Glottis. So we could use it if you're associated with that. Yes, we can say we're a member of the dosage fly's foundation in it. And this was a nonprofit since instance. They didn't make any money. Then there was like kind of no infringement.

It was a nonprofit and it was a public relations community service type organization. So we started this, we, so we, and we had a, it was actually me and then we had a board of directors and on the Board of directors was Ellen Herdman and Rica Molnar. And I think readers say blom and I think Brent was on it. And yeah, he was a really cool, um, and cause we needed to give credibility this organization. And the, and the concept was, is that, you know, if, if it all hit the fan, we could, we could at least say, you know, we're recognized by this organization who is applies organization and we can kind of use the name. And it was kind of like there's kind of a defensive maneuver. Well, and we've got the URL [inaudible] dot org okay. At the time I got actually applies that Oregon applies that comment the same time, but we got that, well that really honked off plus synchrony to this. And so they sued the plies foundation first and then before they actually sued current concepts. Oh, it's you ever got served before I ever got sued, I got sued as the director for the Joseph h plays foundation and ended up and, and so, um, and when that happened, we just came to it because there was, you know, it was too small of a thing to even, you know, two to, you're not going to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to protect something that, that doesn't do anything really at this point. So that folded, I'm telling you that because now, now fast forward, like five years later, I'm on the stand and they started asking me questions about shows of h plays foundation. And so, um, and they started asking me questions like, you know, what did we do? Who, where are we? Why were we there on and on and then, and then, and I'm answering these questions honestly.

And then Ken Bressler, who's attorney for employee zinc, whips out this really fat pile of papers and he says, your honor, um, I'd like to motion for a, uh, terminated that termination, but, uh, clue that this case be closed on the basis of res Judicata. And it's this dramatic thing. And I, and I, and I'm looking at my attorney, what's going on? And he kind of looks at me and he says, Ken, we could be in deep shit. And, and uh, he kinda had to say that because when you're on stand, you're not allowed to talk to your attorneys. And I shouldn't even ask them that question, but that, you know, there was no substance involved there. So it was okay.

But I had to [inaudible] and then court was a journey until the next day. So then I had to go back by myself. Cause now I wasn't sound, I couldn't talk to my attorneys. I could ask any questions technically on the stand. Exactly. Exactly. So for this whole time I couldn't ask any questions. Right. I, it was the worst night of my life because they had told me at the beginning of this thing, they said, it's like playing a game of football.

You're gonna have days when you move the ball forward and days when they Boston to get moved back. And all we want to do is each day or each, you know, but in the trial we want to get to the goal and that's all we're trying to do is get to the goal. And so, and I'm thinking, yeah, they said we had to get to the goal, but they weren't talking about like this stuff. And I'm thinking, I'm really thinking five years and we tell toast, we're hosed. We screwed this up. I don't even know what I did, but I screwed this up every time. You don't even don't even don't even know what rest your cardio is. Right. Don't even know. So the attorneys went back that night, no discussion at all. I went back and I back in the court the next morning back on the stand and, and they just start with the right questions. They start with, you know, um, you know, who is the account, you know, did you have a different website?

Did you have different officers? Did you have a different phone number? You know who, who answered the phone, who was the attorney did? Was it incorporated under, you know, different state, all these things. These are your attorney, this is art. My attorney's cross-examining me and then they say, okay your honor.

Clearly Cara concepts had nothing to do with plot his foundation and so we, we, we make a motion that you dismissed the motion for rest your Kata and what was your Jakarta was, was, is it means that the case has already been decided in the prior case. So they were basically saying that I had already acknowledged that Polly's inc was, it was a bonafide trademark because I had already made that decision and already made that agreement with them. Then this case had already been decided and there was no reason to have this trial going forward. So that was my worst day in court. That was, and obviously it was dismissed. It was the worst night of my life. There's a lot of drama in this story.

Chapter 5

End of the Trial

So we've now had 11 days of trial, federal court over six weeks. So you're in New York for six weeks and long. Many of the other players are too, and all the evidences in what happens next. You said all the evidence was in, Oh, that made me think of something the last day. All the evidence has to be in, so everything has to get admitted in the last day. So the last day of court there was like this free fraud stuff that we were just trying to get admitted into evidence to be admitted. Evidence is boxes and boxes of stuff that needed to be admitted to be considered for the case. So the last day was a little bit chaotic, but then today's over and it's a court adjourn. Right. You know, and then, and then we just pack up our stuff and we just leave. You know, it's just, that's it.

So you don't have any sense of when you're going to find out you don't. And it's a, it's a very crazy thing. I mean, I'm always talking to my attorneys and I'm asking them, so how's it going? How's it going? And they're already saying really good, really good, but that's Kinda like asking for approval from your mother. And it's like, you know, she's going to be positive no matter what. Right. Yeah. So, you know, I'm kind of wanting to know what the other guy's thinking and you know, how they think how they did cause cause yeah, I, from what I can tell, I thought we did pretty good, you know, but I really didn't know. I really didn't know. You know, there were lots of good signs. Um, there was lots of good testimony and really good evidence. But you know, for every bit of evidence that we put forth, they put a piece of evidence that counteracts or evidence. So it's Kinda what they'll believe in. You know, what's the credibility of the witnesses, what's the credibility of the evidence. So we get all this stuff in, we court's adjourned and we pack our stuff up and we have our boxes on carts and there's, there is like 32 boxes of stuff, just files it.

So if we would go through and generate stuff, even mid trial for stuff, depositions, clippings, compilations of articles that were written in, in magazines, we had like studies on the genericness of the word plot. These steady studies. Yeah. Yeah. Cause you have to do, one of the things you have to do in a trial is you've got to actually put it out to the world and say, do you consider plot is a generic term, right? Is this a valid trademark? And so you do a study and then of course then the plaintiff does their study and then they bring in their witnesses to support their study. And then you bring in your witnesses to support their study.

And then they witnesses differ with each other of course, because this is very expert. Yeah. Both experts and the judge has to kind of reel through all this stuff and figuring out whether it's good stuff or not. Just for clarification, what, what is exactly going, what is being ruled on that you're going to now leave the courtroom and wait for them to the judge to rule on we're being sued because supposedly we illegally used a valid, okay. Flooded zinc. And our defense is, is, is that, um, this is not a valid trademark. There's nothing valid about it. And so, so it's actually we want the court to rule this in valid and therefore Ivison Valerie can be sued for it. And at the sake of repeating it again, but okay. What was invalid? Why was it invalid? So number one, it was a totally generic term. You know, there was, there was no other word that you could use to s t to put in place a place that would make any sense. Okay. Um, the other thing was, is that it was fraudulently obtained. So in other words, the people renewing the trademarks made false claims in order to get that trademark. Okay. Um, that it was a surname that, you know, that this is applies is really the name of the guy. Um, uh, that there was an in it, they had actually in some ways already given up the right to go after it.

So there was about five or six different claims, but the major ones were genericness okay. In fraud. Okay. So what happens is, so we give all this evidence, they give other evidence. It's an adversarial process. So they're, they're trying to prove were wrong and we're trying to prove they're wrong and it goes back and forth. Um, and then everyone presents all the cases and then the judge says, okay, Great. I'm, you know, I'll take this honor under submission and I'll, and I'll, and I'll work on the opinion. So you leave, you know, it's very anticlimactic. In fact, you know, we all leave. It's a rainy day, you know, and actually I have a picture of me and Gordon and Deborah were all standing at the, it was the last day of court, um, Sandy, you know, in front of the courthouse and, and with our part of our boxes of stuff and, and, and we're just exhausted. We're just ready to leave town, you know. In fact, I think I left that night for rec for California.

But when you leave, I mean, even just leave [inaudible]. Yeah. What's going through your mind? Well, the funny thing about this is you never really know. You know, you never know how bad stuff it is until it's gone. And so, so when you're with something for like five years or six years or in this case it was, it really can actually start it before I got it. So, yeah. So I actually live with this every single day for about, for, you know, almost six or seven years. Well, the part that stands out for me now as you leave, but do you have a sense of when you're going to find out what the verdict is at when you leave [inaudible] no, they give vague things like, you know, probably it'll happen this year, you know, probably by the end of the year, you know, maybe that's about how long they're taken for opinions. So you just wait, you know, you just kind of go on with your life. There's not too much that can happen to you in the meantime.

You're just kind of waiting and seeing. And by the way, people are calling me and texting me any word yet, any word that can I use the word [inaudible]. Oh Gosh. Oh, that's just talking about torture. Yeah. And it's like you really want to tell them something and it's like, how did we do? How do we do, cause a lot of people, a lot of people donated money to this, you know? Yeah. They try and help out a lot. He'll send evidence for it. It's just, you know, a lot of people had, they were invested, they were invested in it. Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

And they kind of want to know and I want to know more than, but I'm just nothing I can do except go to work every day. You don't kind of hope that it's going to happen and really try and put it on your mind because you know, whatever's going to happen is going to happen. There's nothing you can do if it goes either direction. So how do you come back to current concepts and not wonder if like let's say the verdict didn't go your way [inaudible] our way, um, what becomes of your business, right. But you try and put it out of your mind. You know, you kind of think of the best, their worst case scenario there was actually pretty optimistic and thinking, you know, we didn't do Stepdad and I was, I would have actually been surprised, surprised if he had gone against us but not super confident to surprise cause I kinda thought it would, it would work out okay. Okay. You know, and so thinking so you can think about what you would do with if it didn't go my way because I kinda knew that if we have lost, we been made an example out of that because that's what I was up against. Yes.

Yes. Um, what does that mean? That that would have been made? That we put in a position where we will never ever able to become any kind of a financial or business threat to play Dick again, that's, that's in other words, they would never grant you a license even if you paid. Okay. If I, if, if I over on one, so I read to figure out another way to do business, another way to bring attention to [inaudible] or not anymore. Maybe. Maybe the deal would be is that I would have to go on and, and, and try and figure out a way to create another name for the same exact exercises but not caught Valadez. And then, and then maybe, maybe other people say, well, I don't want to pay this guy. I'd rather call it something else because the work is the work. So you can, you can do that. But you know, I didn't want to do that.

It wasn't the right thing to do. I mean here we are 2000 now, just 13 years ago. Yeah. And you'd been doing this since 1976 and you're having to read possibly rethink your whole, yeah, it probably was where of a typical guy in too shallow or even think back that far to that magnitude. I mean, cause I'm always like looking forward, what am I going to do? Not what I, you know, what [inaudible] do you know what you told me the first time we had a real conversation was that you said you were complimentary of what I was doing and you said it's gonna, you know, you'll, you will fall. But you just keep falling forward, falling forward, which is what I'm hearing you say. That's, that's, that's one of the future things. Other than the fact that there's no shirt things, that's the closest thing to it. Should it seem that there is, yeah. If you fall forward, you'll always end up a step ahead of where you, where you ran into last time and it'll be constructive. It'll be positive.

I remember that. Oh a lot. Thank you. That's terrific. So that's sort of what you were thinking if [inaudible] in a bigger picture. Yeah, yeah. Just, just, you know, it'll, it'll work out cause you know, there's a side of you that just thinks that we doing the right thing. It'll workout. Yes. And, and usually that's the case. The suspense is killing me. What was it like the day you find out? How do you, what happens? We kind of had a pre, cause I got, I got calls to my, and they said we just got a call from the court and they're kind and they're asking us for our contact information.

They usually do that just before they're ready to issue the opinion. So we're excited. Right. But again, you can't get that excited cause they're not gonna tell you anything. So, so then I was having lunch and I remember I was having lunch and it was on Folsom Boulevard in Sacramento. And I got a phone call from my attorney saying, we've got the opinion and [inaudible] and he says, we kicked their ass, totally kicked their ass. And he starts reading it to me and I said, I'm going to the office. I need a real, I need a real call to talk to you. You know, cause this is like, this is like amazing. And we really, really, are you really telling me that you're not, you know, this is not time. It's like, it's like, you know, he said, he said, yeah, not only did we win, but we went really big. This, this opinion is so well written that he can't appeal it. It's, it's like, it's, it's like, it's, it's, it's just, it's a slam dunk. It's like this judge wanted this to be over and did a really, really good job.

And that was that. It them is, you know, it was an amazing day. But the weird thing about the whole, that whole episode was it was an amazing day. I knew it was done, but it was almost a year before I had a day where I woke up. I didn't think about the lawsuit. It was, it took me a year before, before there was like, God, I went to hold in. I didn't think about the lawsuit. It was like, wow, it's just, that was, that was how much a part of my life it was. And it was, it was, um, and it was, I still was dealing with the insomnia and sleep deprivation and stuff of your neurons. Yeah, just always strategize. Always, always. You know, cause I, I'm one of those guys that thinks about stuff at three in the morning and I gotta get up and write it down. Yeah. So that's, that was, that was really cool to finally get some sleep. Two part question on the F on that day that you found out, what significance did it have for you then?

And then what does it have for you now? Personally, I can't tell you how good it feels to win. And I can't tell you how good it feels to win when your rights. Cause there's this times in life when you know, you see people that don't deserve to win, shouldn't win and appear to win. And so to be able to be on the right side of things appear to win. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I don't think they ever really do. I mean, but I think it seems like they do. Yeah. And, and uh, and so that was kind of Kinda of word validating, you know, to me to be able to get through this stuff. Um, and I, and I felt really good for all these other guys that Kinda, I was working alongside of it. You know, we finally get it. I mean, it's as this really big thing and it was really kind of, uh, uh, very excited experience because you got all these like little people and they just in the, they had a good case, um, and everyone together kind of, you know, gathered together and we won people one by doing different things.

I mean you could win just by saying screw it, I'm going to use a trademark. That was a win. That was if you, if you didn't curl up and you said you were applied as instructor, which is just telling the truth. Yeah, that helps. Yeah. Cause as the time progressed, the name Polis was generic at the beginning it got more and more generic and it was like, it was on cartoons, it was on TV sitcoms. It was like all over the place. People used the word applies in a generic way and that, you know, we're emitting that stuff as evidence.

What is the actual ruling? Like what made a big [inaudible] so there really it is this is is that there was a 92 page ruling and the judge is really careful to document the history and document each of our defenses and why we got there and why they made the ruling and, and to make sure that there was no ambiguity, anything that she said in, in the ruling. So, so it was not just, not just, you know, um, that the j rock is invalid. It was invalid. And she wrote a really good opinion as to why it was invalid. And so, and she set up the atmosphere to where there was, it would be almost, almost impossible for them to have any kind of a chance of appealing it. Um, and it was on multiple defenses too. So if it, if it was just on fraud, that would be one thing. It was just on genericness it would be another thing. But it was, it was on, I think it was on four or five defenses where we met the standard of evidence and, and we just, we just, we just cleaned house. But the attorney's attention, good job that it almost in retrospect appeared like this guy was, it was really silly for him to even have tried, you know, but you know, five years, 11 days, six months, you'd probably lose that feeling until you remember. Yeah. Oh Wow. So what happened? I, I know I had a second part to that question. I'll come back to you, but what, um, what happened to, to pull out? I think, um, you know, they, they kind of stumbled around in this.

I think they still exist somehow. I don't know what they're doing. I don't, I mean they originally were gonna like franchise studios or and, and d d t do teacher training and stuff like that. And as far as I can tell, they just vaporize. I haven't seen any, any sign of them anywhere. You know, 13 years later. I know I'm jumping, but what is the personal significance to you now and not on the plays community? That'll be probably my next question. But everything is, they're going to have a progression, right? You start off with something and you don't, like when I started making plays a criminal, I thought this is a stupid fad. Right? Yeah. And then you start to get to know the people. You start to get to know plot as you start to do plot A's, you know, you understand that businesses that you know, you, you get to know that your customers, you get to know your customers. Kids. Yeah.

You know, you, you know, you visit them, you stay at their houses and stuff. And as time progressed, as you get more and more deeper into it, because you're so intertwined with all the, the players and characters and people that are involved in this, this industry, and it's, it's a remarkable industry. I, you know, this, I'm going to tell you this anyway, but I think, I think people that are watching plays anytime she'd see this, but what makes Polonia is incredible. Why it's so good in why for me it's such an honor to be part of this community is because people that do plot is really care. They really care. They really serious about what they do. And, and, uh, and it's really hard not to love these types of people. Yeah. I mean it's like there's all these morons out there you could, like, you could have relationships with really good people and they're in our, our community. Yes. So the, they, they grow on you.

So the lawsuit was working really closely with a lot of people going through some really tough times in their life. And you just kind of gets to the point to where you kinda get deeper and deeper and deeper into the community and, and, and, and, and it becomes your life. And so, you know, I, I don't think that, I mean 13 years later, I think what's become really important to me is, you know, this, this community and at a level where it never has 13 years ago, it was really gently than it was 16 years ago. It just keeps on growing and growing. Um, and it's exciting to see it grow. It's exciting to think about how many millions of people we're touching every single day. And, and it's, and it's, uh, data doesn't go by and I'm sure for you, and in often for me, we're not talking to somebody on the telephone that says, you know, plot has changed my life. Yeah. I mean, either changed my life or it created a fantastic opportunity for me. Or, you know, I know someone that changed their life. Yes. You know, and you can't say that in so many other jobs, right. Or more, you don't, yeah. You can count an almost hearing it again.

Yeah, yeah, I know. I hear it. Yeah. It's not a surprise. Yeah. It's just the work. This is what we do. Yeah. Yeah. I understand that you were,

Chapter 6

How the Lawsuit Changed Pilates

um, at that party, um, in New York shortly after the trial. That was the inception, or at least the idea percolating of the PMA bunches of people that, a lot of people in the, our community, I mean, Debra was there, the lawyers where they are going, Troy was there, real green's attorney was there. Well, green wasn't there. Um, uh, Bob [inaudible] who is only one writer is, was there, um, Deborah lessen was there. Kevin Bone was there. Coleen Glenn was there. Um, I'm trying to think of some of the other people that were there. Um, a lot of people from the New York world because a lot people were really excited. I mean, I think a lot of people really felt that they had been liberated. Yeah. And then the idea was floating. It wasn't my idea, but with the idea was funny. Well, why don't we start a new organization that will, that will help grow the industry. And, and, and I've always been a big advocate of that because I think that that's, that's what we need. I mean, I think we need, we need, we need one voice that that will, will help to really kind of see the enthusiasm about potties in the universe and, and, and so, um, so Kevin and Colleen wanted to do that and it seemed like a really good idea to me. And so, you know, we talked about it and I said, I'm in. Um, and, and, and then that led to the beginning of having the first conference that they put on.

I am aware of the impact of winning that lawsuit. I mean, you gave, you allowed me to make a career, you know, that, that specifically you did. And so I wonder if, how do you think, how has your own business change and how do you think the lawsuit changed? [inaudible] the fundamental way that it changed PyLadies is, so, this is my Ken's opinion here, but sure. How, how it changed philosophies is that it, you know, up until the lawsuit, up until the decision and the lawsuit, people did politeness. It was almost, it wasn't protected. It was almost like there were like, it was from under a rock type of a thing. I mean, you couldn't even call it what it was. Yeah. You couldn't, you know, uh, even even if the technology for plays Thai anytime existed, it wouldn't have been able to exist then. Right. Um, but, but now it, in that environment, is it possible? Would it have been impossible for it to be wrong? So, so I think that, um, the, the, the biggest thing is now is that, is that the industry has gone from a place to where it's kind of this unnatural synthetic environment that's has a really kind of funny protective wraps around it to where it is now, which is, um, which Israel vibe. It's a real business. I mean, people go out there, they, they, they, they train for it.

They make business decisions, decisions about it. They, they have to market themselves. Yeah. You know, they've got to continue to improve. They've got to have continuous relationships. I mean, the days of being able to put your shingle up and say you're flies instructor and have a waiting list is it's not gonna happen. I mean, you have to, it's a real business now. Yeah. You know, it's a real service if people have to treat it seriously and, and, and that's probably the biggest thing. And that's created huge opportunities for people because, um, it doesn't make it necessarily easier in terms of doing nothing and getting business, but it makes it lots easier and having many more ways to, to, to, to get customers to get your word now, and we were talking earlier, it's like, you know, in, in, in 1940, if you had a business two blocks away from, from someone in New York City, they'd probably never even knew you existed. Right. Right. Now it's a different village almost. Yeah. Yeah. We know everything now. So, um, and we have opportunities and so we can, you know, we can, you know, some, somebody may have heard of [inaudible] three times and not have known you existed 15 years ago. Right. And now they hear about Florida. They want to do it, they can find you. Yeah. You know, and you can make yourself be saved. And it's, it's a, it's a very different deal.

And that's because it's a generic term this week is because people can use the word plot to identify themselves. What would you say to anyone who might say, well, the, the, the downside of generic is that anybody can say they do. Kalani's what, what do you say to that? If, you know, there's no super clean answer to that. I mean, you know, um, most of the time people can call themselves anything that they want, you know, so, so the th th the question is, is, is you never could use the word plot is to, to create a, um, uh, uh, an air of professionalism or certainty. It, it never, never really legally could be used out yes. For that purpose. So, so the concept of, of saying you can all use the word glottis is if you meet certain criteria, um, that was never a play. It never was that way. People wanted to try and do that, but, but you just can't. Okay. So it's Kinda like saying, you know, you're a doctor. Well, you could be, you know, it's up to me when you say you're a doctor to say, Oh, is that a phd? Is that a doctorate in physics? Is that a doctorate in medicine? What kind of a doctor is that? You know? And so the community knows to answer, ask those questions. They don't just assume that you're a brain surgeon. Right. And, and when you see your a teacher, the community has to understand, OK, I teach [inaudible], you know, where are you going to school? You know, who says that you're good at? What are your references? It's like, it's like, you know, um, who can I talk to that can tell me that you're, you're, you're, you're who you say you are. Right.

[inaudible] it's the same and I think that's part of the job of a police instructor is to make sure that we continue educating the public in that way too. Yeah. You know, I kept on thinking that this was a bubble that was going to burst for so long. And every time I thought, how much iron can this last? They kept on going, right? Right about 20 years ago. I got tired of thinking how much, sorry, excuse me, how much longer can this, can this go for it? And as you look out into the future right now, you know, it's ours to screw up. You know, it, it's, it's, you know, it's, this is applies is amazing work.

It works really good for people. As we said earlier, you know, you can't go a day without hearing a phenomenal story about how, what plot, how applies has changed somebodies life. Right? And, and, and then you look at that and you look at how well [inaudible] works as modality compared to anything else similar to it. And every day please wins. You know, you can, you can, you can get the benefits of flies by doing lots of different things, but you can't do any one thing as efficiently as you do. Polonius and so, so if you start looking at the future, you know, it's perfect. It's perfect for who we're at. You know where we're going. You know, it's perfect for our demographic, cause you can do plays at any part in your life. You know, and you know, you see it. Elite athletes do parties and they're, you know, they just become better football players and better soccer players, better tennis players, you know, and you've got everything in between. Probably Trauma, you know, and elite athletes. You know, what works better. You tell me.

I out A's. Yeah. Every time. Every time. Um, I definitely just want you to hear that we owe so much of that to you. Every time someone says to me, Flonase has changed my life. If I think it through, I can trace it back to you, in my opinion, kind of saving Palladio's or rescuing Flonase. And so thank you very much. Well, thank you. Thank you.

It means a lot to me too, to all of us. And I hope now that those who didn't know get to know [inaudible].

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Comments

Kim
2 people like this.
Without Balanced Body, and it's incredible training program, I would not be teaching Pilates today. Thank you Ken and Nora! I teach on Allegro Reformers every day, and love them. Clients are impressed with their quality and ease of use. If I go bust as an instructor, I would gladly work for Ken and the Balanced Body team, even of I had to clean toilets. You guys rock!
Thanks Kim. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the discussion too!
Kim
3 people like this.
I have found the discussions regarding the lawsuit fascinating and informative. I barely knew what Pilates was at the time it was happening, so I'm not emotionally entrenched in the details. However, I believe if the verdict had been different, I would not have had access to the training I've had, and for that I'm grateful. I appreciate Ken's candor in the interview, and you, Kristy, asked excellent questions. Thanks for providing this.
2 people like this.
Thank you so much for sharing this discussion detailing a significant time in Pilates history. I was not involved in Pilates at this time in history, but am grateful to Ken and all those who who helped to make the "P" word public. I have watched many of the personal accounts from others who were involved with the lawsuit - many of which offered small insights and opinions of the story. However, Ken's interview helps to give a broader and more detailed scope of the story. Very inspired by the tenacity of spirit and faith in our community. "Always fall forward" - very inspiring - thank you :)
3 people like this.
Ken is a class act. When I attented the Fletcher Conference in 2013 I met him. I didn't realized who he was, that he owned BB. He helped me pick out an Orbit to buy at a reduced rate. He stood there talking to me for the longest time like we were old friends catchin up, only I'd just met him.
I enjoyed watching this segment, thank you Kristi!
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Brave man! We can be thankful that today we can be who we are and do what we do as a pilates teachers/instructors.
Fantastic segment. I knew about the lawsuit, but never heard the details of what went down, nor did I realize how long it went on for. Such an important part of this community's history.

Thank you to Ken for sharing and to Kristi for hosting such an interesting interview!
Thank you for watching Nicole. I also think it is an important part of this community's history and am grateful to Ken for sharing.
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A most sincere and heartfelt Thank You for all that you did and all that you went through Ken. Thank you Kristi for having this discussion and all that you do for Pilates.
Christine Huff, I appreciate your feedback very much. You're welcome.
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