Welcome to [inaudible] anytime. I'm Elizabeth Larkam. Thrilled to be here in discussion with Rochelle Clawson. Rochelle is the new media and communications coordinator of the fashion net plastination project. Participation in this project has transformed the way that I understand teaching. We're shell. Please. Would you explain to us just what is the
They're coming together to create the world's first 3d human Fashional plastinates and plastination is the act of taking plastic and infusing it into real acumen cadaver tissue so that it can be taken outside of the lab and seen by a wider audience in a beautiful and understandable way. Even though I've been a part of it, it's still amazing to me. That's so many. Um, so many expert or organizations that are at the forefront of anatomy education are investing in this. What was little known tissue? How did all of these organizations come together? That's a actually a long story of time because, uh, as the research of fascia has continued to develop throughout the years, as it turns out, quite a few people have approached the plastic Nerium seeing if they would be interested in plastinated facial tissue. Uh, truly the emphasis in most fashion plastinates if you've seen a body worlds exhibit has been on the muscular system dominantly.
And then also the vascular system or the nervous system, the must be a the bony system, but the fascist typically fully removed. Um, so people don't really have a good concept in their mind generally speaking of what the fascist system looks like or where it lives or how it connects to the other structures. So over the years, about 10 years, actually, people have been approaching the plastic Nerium and nothing's ever really connected up until recently. So in the end of, uh, or it was around I think 2017 that dr Robert Slipe approached again and said, would you be interested in doing this? Of course, fashion research has progressed so far in the past 10 years that they were. And so, uh, magic happened and they finally got a plan together to actually bring fascia into a project for the plastic Nerium.
So the beginning of the process is similar to if you were doing a class that you start with to preserve tissue and so that's preserved with formaldehyde. Like it would be in a normal dissection class and then dissection. So dissection that can take a long time because these are so detailed, it can take up to six months to do a full body cadaver, dissecting it into the final form as to what they want to show or highlight. In our case, the facial system. After that, it goes through a series of Babs high and low temperature acetone pads for defunding and dehydration. And then B plastic infusion where the acetone is replaced with plastic and it's fully infused to the cellular level. That takes six months, and then you have another six months process of positioning.
And that's where the positioners are meticulously with pins and, um, all kinds of different props and pulleys positioning this form into its final position. And so many of these are dissected down to the level where they're showing, um, nerves and veins and arteries. All of those have to be pinned into place exactly where they go, uh, after that it's fully cured through gas curing and that makes it harder. So it's more like a harder rubber. Uh, and that's how we can then position and see them without them collapsing or falling apart.
So we did 10 smaller specimens that were both the superficial fascia as well as deep Fashional structures. And you and I met there to do this dissection and that was January of 2018 we had a team of about 14 people that volunteered to come together and create these specimens and then send them through the plastination.
Others are leaders in their home community. As massage therapists. We have movement educators. We have experts in a anatomical dissection. It's a a whole range of people. Could you talk about how it is to be the communications coordinator of [inaudible],
We had people that came from Brazil and Singapore and Finland and Canada and the U S all came together. It was amazing actually how far people travel in order to participate in this.
And not everyone is really down for going into a dissection lab. Not everyone's down for even seeing pictures of cadaver tissue. It is, um, it can be intense and, and I don't know that it's necessary exactly to see and to be able to understand the anatomy of fascia. So we're reliant on images of drawings or of computer generated images. And at this point in time they are mostly devoid of fascia because they aren't really recording that layer very well. So plasta nation is such a unique way to be able to take the actual tissue and preserve it so that it is, um, you know, it loses some of the same quality. It's not as supple.
Obviously we've hardened it with plastic. It's not quite as clear. In many cases it becomes a little bit more opaque, but it's very approachable. And that's the thing about body worlds is that they are remarkable at at helping us to not see dead bodies in front of us there. We're seeing living bodies and I feel the plastination process takes tissue that's deceased and makes it alive again. You know, it helps us to see what, imagining what we would look like under the skin in motion and it does a beautiful job at that
There's a quite a few places actually. One of the,
But you can see them from your phone as well,
And there's a photo montage of a lot of us as well telling kind of our journey
You're standing four hours in a fairly cold room. Fortunately, it's well ventilated oftentimes on concrete, um, in, um, a flection posture like this. Oftentimes the tall fascinated, you know, with, with what you can uncover. And at the end of the day, I am a mess because I'm out of my own alignment, but also because I, I've been a wash, so to speak in this incoming information that is tactically fascinating and visually fascinating, but I have no idea how to translate it into movement. What are we going to do about this? That's the next frontier. I think so as we approached this frontier of translating the dis of the, the discoveries and the visual beauty of the human neuro myofascial system, I think it's so important to keep an on the shoulder saying, Oh, don't jump to conclusions. Don't think the, just because you saw today the continuation of the different layers and levels of tissue in this area of the arm, don't think that you understand how to teach movement according to what you just saw. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. So this is a cautionary note because, um, it is my tendency and all of our tendencies I think to try to simplify the complex. And one thing we're discovering in the FM PP is that the complexity of the neuromod Fashional system is absolutely, is virtually infinite. No.
But that the human mind and especially the human movement mind in my case, um, does not deal well with complexity. I would rather simplify things and say there is a linear force transmission between your big toe and your pubic bone. Right. Well, maybe it's not so linear. Yeah. How do you, in your work as a massage therapist, how do you square or how do you integrate what you discover in the lab and what you feel with your hands?
But I think that not having the fashion system clearly in our minds and not having a sense of the, where it lives, how it connects and that it isn't necessarily, muscles don't go all the way to their insertion. Oftentimes or at their origin, they actually are attaching to the fascia, the changes. Everything is to what you think, you know. So we're adding a layer at least by getting the images clearer for people that they can understand their stuff. And it's not just filler bags that fill in spaces, but there's um, you know, some things that are very strong and some things that are very wispy and you can feel it
Because as a result of being at the dissection table with you and being guided by these experts, what I think I know was probably over-simplified and maybe frankly might've been misguided because so much of the anatomical education available when I was first learning in my first cadaver dissection lab at Stanford in 1973. Right. Um, too much formaldehyde there. Um, but that, uh, the, the fashion fashion just didn't exist then. We got it out of the way as fast as possible and now we're discovering that it is such a, an integral aspect of our proprioception and our interoception. Yeah. I played such a role in being able to perceive and coordinate that, that, you know, through its neurological connections to be able to coordinate what the muscles actually do. And that's something
And so we're still in that space of needing to be careful that we still explain this is not how it is in the human body. If you want to know the human body, look at this, look at your own. This is the continuous connections that things have. When you soon as you take a scalpel to it, you've changed it and then you've taken it through plastination you've changed it more. So there's something lost when there's something gained. And what the phrase we've been using in the project a lot is how we're taking things away in order to show other things that we have to dissect, which means cut apart to show connection. How the heck do you do that? You know, I'm separating to show connectivity.
And so we're trying to do it in very clever ways and we're trying to do things in partial ways so that you can still understand that this part was touched. This part wasn't, this is, you know, how the two relate, but it's, it is a constant challenge, which is why things have evolved so much even as we've been going.
These plastic units are fascia focused, which means that the fashion is part of the integrative whole. Yes.
I'm going to still put in quotes because in the superficial fascia you still have veins and arteries and nerves which you can see through them, which is why we lit them and call it facet in a new light. So exciting. Um, but beyond, um, removing, I would say the, the muscles have been removed. Let's just say that there was no muscle tissue in these, but the fascia is very much isolated from the muscular tissue to give a really different view. But we can't do a whole body that way. We thought we could and then we thought about it and realized it's absolutely impossible at this stage in the game, we still are thinking about that one. But right now where we are as in the middle of what is the full vision of this project when we started, which is to create a whole body plast in it and it's to demonstrate the fashion system, but we quickly saw it needs to be called a fashion focused plastic in it and not just a fashion class in it because of how seamless everything is at the moment. We don't have the technology or chemistry to just dissolve out.
Maybe you could say everything that's not fascia. So we have our fingers crossed. Something like that can eventually come along. Like I said, we have some clever ideas, but at the moment we're having to leave some of the other tissues, a lot of the other tissues in place. And we actually think it's probably more informative this way because you're not just getting now another false idea of a separate thing, but you're understanding that this is connected to muscle here. This is connected to skin here.
This is connected to bone or ligament or tendon or nerve system. And so those relationships I think are as important to understand as the fascia by itself. Cause like you said, that's a road we really don't want to go down. It's not an isolated thing. It's fully integrated perhaps more so than any other system of the body
So this is bridging with rotation. You can it with me. Come to lie on your back. You'll bend one knee, tuck the other foot, the other ankle behind your uh, lifted knee foot. And since I'm the, in my case this foot is on the ground, the same Palm is going to go on the ground. And as you inhale it's a bridge with RO tation turning the pelvis around the head of the femur. Now Rochelle, if you were from your wise standpoint of viewpoint of the, of such an experienced dissector with the fashion that plastination project, which you speak a little bit about where the forces might be transmitted through the system here, I'll just move along while you speak a little bit.
There is a challenge, I know, get a massage therapist on her toes.
And then the deepest layer of lumbar dorsal fascia actually comes around and wraps through the transfer versus um, so likely all of these are getting some kind of gliding and sliding planes going on as she moves through. And I think one of the things we are learning about fascia is how important glide is to the areas where these planes pass each other. They're not fully free, but they need to have glide in order to allow movement along with the support that they provide.
There's the fascia Lata which is wrapping our thigh of which the ID band is a thickening of, and then you have the faster recruits in the, in the lower leg you have the brachial fashioned antebrachial fascia in the arms and the muscles actually embed in certain areas directly into that outer bag as opposed to continuing on and only connecting to the tendon end range. So the external communicates with the internal in the internal communicates with the external, and it's a, it makes sense as soon as you hear it, I think, but
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